Buying guns over the weekend
As was probably very predictable, our little adventure into weapons purchasing was reduced to a matter of budgeting and practicality as opposed to my grand hopes of building a force of firepower no one could oppose. Yes, that’s right; I did not buy the Barret Model 82 and a MOAB. Ultimately it came down to costs and practical use. So this is what we got:

I of course still have my Beretta 92FS which I’ve had for a couple of years now. It weighs 32oz roughly and can hold a magazine in excess of 10 rounds (though some laws prohibit magazine that hold more than 10). It fires 9mm rounds. It’s good enough for the Marine Corps, so it’s good enough for me. Besides that, I like working with what I’m used to. As far as this weapon was involved over the weekend, I got more ammo for it.
Ileana got herself a Charter Arms Goldfinger .38 special. It is a small 12 oz. 5 shot revolver. While I myself prefer magazine fed handguns, Ileana preferred the reliability combined with the easy of handling. In case you didn’t know, revolvers are less likely to jam than magazine fed weapons, and they require significantly less maintenance which is another plus. The gun is small enough for Ileana’s small hands to reach everything. The light weight also makes it far easier for her to aim than my bulky Beretta 92.

We also got a Mossberg 500E shotgun which fires a .410 Gauge shell. It can hold up to 6 shells when fully loaded (including the one in the chamber). It fires the least powerful (common) shotgun round, but that comes with the advantage of not destroying our house or killing our neighbors on the other side of our townhouse’s walls should we need to disassemble someone dumb enough to wander into our house at 3am. While not the most manly of all available home artillery, it serves as the most practical solution after a handgun for general family defense. It has a short 18.5” barrel for easy(er) maneuverability down hallways and around corners and weighs in around 6lbs making it easy for everyone in the family to carry it. Because it is small, lightweight and fires a round that won’t knock the rest of my family back on their butts, I feel confident that my family can learn to use this effectively even in my absence.

We purchased some miscellaneous items like ammo, a waterproof case for the shotgun (you never know when you might be paddling down the street in a canoe with hurricanes the way they are), a holster to keep Ileana’s gun protected inside her purse, gun handling class for Ileana, etc. All in all, by the time we get Ileana’s carry permit, we will have spent just over a grand on this weekend. Now down the road, laws and budget allowing, we may purchase a rifle. I currently have my heart set on an
AR-15, but I may have to do a little budgetary juggling since that alone approaches $2K. Like I said, I like what I’m used to.
Well, I now know whose house I'm going to when civilization collapses.
ReplyDeleteNow brush up on your state and local gun laws. Shortly after I moved to FL in '05, I was shocked to learn that defending yourself when fired upon in public had only just become legal.
ReplyDeleteOh yeah, and happy Veterans Day, Tom! Semper Fi, buddy! And watch where you point that thing.
ReplyDeleteThanks! No prob- *BLAM!* Um.... I'll clean that up....
ReplyDeleteInstead of buying a gun, I'm just going to move next to Tom & put a big sign in my window: "Murderous killers in here. Go next door, the guy's a pussycat."
ReplyDeleteShoot-self-in-foot Dad
Nice choice on the Mossberg, remember to put some good home defense ammo in it, like bird shot or make some rock salt shells at home.
ReplyDeleteWhile 00-Buck may be the "cool" round to carry (equivalent: 9 32cal rounds) the problem they have in the home environment is ricocheting around the room. They'll probably bounce off of 2-3 walls before slowing down enough to fall to the ground. They'll only go through a wall with a direct impact. (but then again, they may just bounce back at you)
Bird shot is slow enough to minimize the number of bounces... but nothing is guarenteed.
Thanks for the tip. Will do.
ReplyDeleteTom:
ReplyDeletePlease remember that any ammunition you use for self defense has to be able to actually stop the threat. I would not recommend birdshot, especially not in a 410. That is not a combination known for effenctiveness. Additionally, I think rock salt is a bit of a gimmick.
One place to look for interesting ammo tests is http://theboxotruth.com/. Two loads to consider for your 410 are the Winchester 000 buckshot loads (2-1/2" with 3 pellets or 3" with 5 pellets). Any load that is effective will penetrate interior walls.
God bless!
Wayne
Hmm... I've seen a 12gauge with a 3" 00 Buck, bounce off of three walls (wall scoring but no penetration).
ReplyDeleteI've also seen a .308cal round go through 7 walls of various construction before fragmenting to small enough pieces to embed in drywall. Sometimes, "stopping power" is more risk than it is worth for inside home defense.
So "any load that is effective will penetrate" statement can be considered proven false.
Next.
Go buy a watermellon, go out to someplace where they won't complain about your shooting a watermellon.
Use birdshot. Put the watermelon at 20 feet, 15 feet, 10 feet and 5 feet.
Take notice of the effect. Realize that the closer the target the more you are also going to burn the target with the blast.
One point to consider:
ReplyDeleteA load of birdshot at close range will leave a nasty wound. To effectively stop an aggressor requires penetration, something birdshot does not deliver. If you want to test the effectiveness of birdshot, take 3 or 4 milk jugs, line them up, and then shoot them. Even at close range many pellets will not exit even the first milk jug.
Milk jugs are under 6" thick. Projectiles generally penetrate better in water than in ballistic gelatin (or in tissue). Birdshot will leave a nasty, but shallow wound. This may well stop an attacker, but it will not stop a determined one.
With the exception of exotic rounds (Glaser safety slugs, Magsafe, etc), any round that will reliably stop an aggressor will penetrate interior walls.
God bless!
From: the firing line forums
ReplyDelete"I worked as a Paramedic in central Georgia for 13 years. I saw many gunshot wounds. Besides the cases I worked, I went over to the ER to check out any GSW that came in, as our barracks was in the parking lot out behind the ER, and I was particularly interested in gunshot wounds.
I was fascinated by the lethality of birdshot wounds to the torso.
In the course of my career I saw 14 close range birdshot wounds to the torso and every one of them died.
Most of these injuries occurred inside a house, so you are talking 10 feet to maybe 25 feet max.
We did have one sad case, a teenage boy was crossing a barbed wire fence. He had a .410 with number 6 shot. The gun went off and hit his brother in the back of the neck, ten feet away.
The kid was dead when the ambulance arrived.
Most of the shotgun torso wounds I saw were like that, we would get there ten minutes after the shooting and the guy would be graveyard dead.
I saw hundreds of gunshot wounds and close range birdshot was the most lethal gunshot injury I saw.
If any of y'all doubt the effectiveness of birdshot, it is easy to do a penetration test.
I had heard that birdshot would not penetrate a leather coat. I doubted this so I made a test. I got a pair of old workboots, the sole was worn out but the ankle leather was still good, easily as thick as the leather of a coat.
I got a 20 gauge shotgun loaded with number 8 shot. At fifteen feet I shot the boot. The shot went right through the leather, and went right out the other side. The pattern was familiar, about 1 1/2 inches wide, a rough jagged hole.
Then I put a pine 1x4 into the other boot. I figured that 3/4 inch of pine was a pretty good simulation of human bone.
I fired again. The shot went through the leather and blew right through the board. This time, only a few shot exited the other side of the boot.
I had the feeling that if someone had been wearing this boot they would have had their foot blown off, it would have given the orthopedic surgeon a very long night to try to save it."
Picture of birdshot into balistic gel
You can also google images of birdshot wounds. While it may not turn humans into swiss cheese, that is not always the desired effect during close quarters home defense.
I do actually have a pack of six 410 000 buckshot. But unfortunatley they are kind of expensive and I didn't notice any at Walmart. I stocked up on the lowest number shot I could (number 4) b/c the guy behind the counter said the lower the number the larger the shots in it. I went with that for whatever that's worth. And the damage from the birdshot images looks like enough to convince me not to mess with me.
ReplyDeleteI might be able to be pickier with ammo when the price comes down and they restock more....That and when I get a chance to fire this thing and figure out what I'm most comfortable with.
Also I'm buying an M1 Garand this week and I'll post about it (hat tip to Wayne) if/when it arrives (I think I qualify for it, but I have to wait to hear from them).
And a friend of mine at work says she has a connection for AR-15s but I'll have to follow up on her friend's prices.
Here's a great video on the different rounds available for shotguns:
ReplyDeleteShotgun Ammunition: 'Rounds of Authority'
Sweet! Now our blog has everything, including an argument about ammunition stopping power. I remember our old barber, a pistol shooting champ himself, having a similar argument with a customer about handgun rounds. For what it's worth, some of Tom's walls & floors are pretty solid concrete.
ReplyDeleteA couple of comments regarding birdshot:
ReplyDeleteFirst, the picture you show of birdshot is #1 birdshot, almost the largest size made. Tom has a .410. He is not likely to find birdshot larger than #4. This would yield 7-8" of penetration at best. A picture of #4 birdshot into gelatin is: #4 birdshot into gel.
Second, discussing the penetration of birdshot with regards to a leg doesn't matter. If you have to shoot someone, you don't aim for the legs. You aim for the "center of mass". This is generally a bit thicker than a leg.
Third, if I have to shoot someone in self-defense, I am not concerned about what happens to that person in an hour. I don't even much care how they are doing in five minutes. I care what happens in the 30 seconds after they are shot. I will not be trying to injure or kill them. I will be trying to STOP them NOW. That is my only concern. I don't think birdshot can reliably fulfill this goal, especially not in a .410.
Tom: I haven't ordered from them, but you might take a look at ammunitiontogo.com for buckshot.
God bless!
well, you could always load a rubber bullet in first and follow it up with rock salt and a third shell with bird shot and a fourth shell with a slug... you know, warning shots... each getting a little more deadly... as the threat escalates... plus Tom, you could just get your rifle fitted with a bayonet. I'm sure any criminal would be a fool to take on a marine trained in hand-to-hand combat with a bayonet.
ReplyDeleteOr land mines. Mine your welcome mat, and it provides early warning AND stopping power.
ReplyDeleteOne last thing to add to this discussion: Tom, if you're ever mentioned in the news, you realize the pic of you with the shotgun is the one they'll use.
ReplyDelete"Area man Tom Adams [FILE PHOTO] said today that he didn't approve of the mayor's decision and would be contacting city hall shortly to discuss the matter."
"Area man Tom Adams [FILE PHOTO] was awarded the keys to the city today, for his generous contributions to the orphanarium."
ReplyDeleteyeah... I suppose so. Now if I want them to post a picture of me in shape, shaved and smiling, I'll have to hold something scarrier. Dang.
ReplyDeleteI've always trusted Mossberg shotguns. They're the perfect home defense guns, wont go through walls, are intimidating, and they take cheap ammo. Nice pick up.
ReplyDelete